[Rebecca] Public Television for the win!
The other day I busted on public television (just a little) for being completely disconnected from reality. It's only fair, then, that I take a moment to give WGBH and Nova props for last night's documentary Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial. The show covered the events that took place last year in Dover, Pennsylvania, when my hero Eugenie Scott and so many others took it upon themselves to defend a school from the ignorance of creationism.
(An aside about Eugenie Scott: I don't use the word "hero" lightly. If you don't know her, you should. Check out our interview of her on The Skeptics' Guide here, and visit The National Center for Science Education here. My dream is to one day have half her intelligence, wit, and beauty. That's all, gushing over!)
Anyway, if you missed last night's showing, have no fear. Whet your appetite with this amusing clip uploaded by Norm over at OneGoodMove, plus this other shorter clip showing Genie. Then check out Nova's web site this Friday, where you'll be able to view the show online for free. Kudos to WGBH and Nova for using the Internet to deliver high-quality, educational content to a large audience.
delicious
diggI was going to post this as a response to something below, but realized that it would format as one letter per line. But I want to let you guys know that I don't mind the hijack at all! It would be nice if Chad would read a response before replying, but hey, at least it's nice to see a little life on this site! I'll have to come up with something even more controversial for my next post.*
*This makes me laugh because I've heard a few people express, er, skepticism that anyone really believes in the weird things I talk about, like psychics and ghosts and creationism. Well, there we go!
I read the responses! but my replies are based on Rich's reaction.....I like raising his blood pressure lol!
if he keeps on, he will end up on xanax...but he's know where to be found today...must be hard at work googlin' for a good response
*always trust that internet*
or maybe he's watching his platic bowl too? mine has yet to produce~ but I wait!! I'm a little "skeptic" that it will.....but science wont let me down!
if it can happen once it can happen a billion times right? maybe he'll show up in a bit?
If the merest glimmer of a possibility of a fraction of a hint of an idea of something is out there... you're going to get a few people who say...
Hmmmmm I'll bet that guy who said "The mole people are the ones who REALLY took down The New Frontier casino" was right... and the media just put that story out there to cover up the fact that it was the latest casualty in the whole secret mole people wars and their attempt to take over water supplies in the south west.
Down with mole people...
Hold on...
they already are.
is nothing more than an organized system of ingnorance in itself. created by man, based on mans beliefs and understanding. it changes everyday,and will always do so...because science doesnt know what it thinks it knows. it just uses the best educational guess it has available until the data or information changes or becomes available. Ignorance is believing that once upon a time there was nothing...and boom there was? something from nothing?? that in itself is "scientifically" impossible. something dont come from nothing....if thats the case then maybe a million dollars will appear on my desk in the next five minutes?? probably not, you know why? cause its impossible! just as impossible as the big bang theory and all others simular to it. well while I'm waiting for my million dollars to show up, I think I'll go get an empty rubbermaid container and stare at it...and hopefully in time a new universe will spring up into it out of thin air?
It's a method. It cannot ever assert anything is finally and forever true, because that's antithetical to its method. It CAN assert that whatever truth is described, today, is based on empirical evidence that has been presented in full such that it can be replicated by other expert scientists.
When new facts and technologies come to the fore, the "older truth" must be re-theorized and re-tested to account for whatever the new facts and technologies have revealed. Science, unlike, say, art or religion or politics or literature, actually gets better with age and experience - less fallible, more reliable, more adept at harder and harder tasks. (Hemmingway is not "better" than Shakespeare, despite the several hundred years of additional experience of writers with English. 20th century physics, however, kicks the ass of Newtonian physics).
One useful way to look at science is as being the "best or most accurate available truth." You may feel let down by that. But you must remember that EVERYTHING ELSE that tries to explain the world is mere opinion, most of it pure horsesh**.
Let's compare science to, say, religious revelation, for results. Science has given us "uncertain truth" but constantly improving vaccines, travel technology, antibiotics, computers, the internet, safe surgery, modern agriculture, etc.
Religion has given us "certainty" of belief. Trouble is, that since religion is not subject to peer testing and verification, it can produce no predictable result (except the predictable result that we will continue to slaughter and persecute each other over our differing "certainties"). Religion never improves. Nor can it.
Science clarifies for all humanity the difference between certainty ... and TRUE knowledge.
No contest, in my book.
Rich Meitin
www.richmeitin.com
http://www.publicradioquest.com/node/1038
for your penetrating analysis and thoughtful presentation in this regard.
Rich Meitin
www.richmeitin.com
http://www.publicradioquest.com/node/1038
but theres no need to waste time explaining to someone thats closed minded and dead set on thier own opinion.
when will you silly humans understand that science is a man made thing...based own our own thoughts and theories? the universe is not subject to our understanding and it doesnt follow our rules and theories...thats why its so hard for science to be accurate. something cannot come from nothing...point blank. nature in itself did not happen just because...whats the old saying? every action must have an oppisite and equal reaction or something like that? well....who gave it the energy to happen out of nothing?? the human mind is set up to think everything has a beggining and an end and that everything is somehow explainable and it is not. science cant cure a common cold..but you believe it can tell you how the universe started and how big it is, and how old it is??? thats insane! what about whats on the other side of the universe? and then whats beyond that? the Bible states that our purpose is to become as God like as possible....and the older the human race gets the closer we become....and for argument if we survived a million more years here..how much more powerful and smart we would be...and how closer to the goal we would become..right?? which in return shows how "intelligence" plays a factor in making things work..not chance! you can cry all day long about religeous wars but it doesnt change nothing!your mind frame is built on what society has taught you and you ride under the umbrella of your opinion and not reality. show me something concrete. you cant. and probably never will, because science is too envolved on theory and not fact way to often...we know very little but act like we know all because of few people hold a degree in a certain field..pbsst. but on a lighter note...my plastic bowl has yet to produce a universe....and my million dollars hasnt showed up yet...but my prayers were answered this week...oh but thats just coincidental circumstance to you right? I shall leave you with this:
Luke chapter 8 verses 5-18....you specifically fall at verse 14.
have a lovely day.
It's already in my post. Medicine, technology, modern transport, the computer you're typing on (might want to take that spell checker out for a test run sometime) - all that stuff is a product of the sheer practical, repeatable power of the scientific method. Every time you climb into your truck and drive down a road, you're verifying that science works reliably. Every time you become really ill and go to a hospital instead of a church, you yourself are CHOOSING proven science over religion. Doesn't get more concrete than that, does it?
If we ignore the utter and willful ignorance/insanity of fundamentalists of every stripe, I don't see religion and science as being in conflict. You want to claim that god set the universe in motion? That's OK with me. Maybe he/she/it set it motion using a combination of the big bang and evolution. See? No conflict. Just one of god's mysterious ways.
If you seek the absolute truth from ancient religious texts, you're in trouble right from the start, though: The Christian text differs from the Koran and from Buddhist and Hindu (etc.) scriptures. Only one, if any, can be the "truth." I'm presuming you have "chosen" the Christian text because you were indoctrinated from an early age and you pretty much believe as your family and neighbors do. On the other hand, if you studied the major religions and settled upon Christianity based on concrete evidence, I'd like to know what that is. (Science tells us that personal anecdotes - like having you prayers answered - don't count because that result is not verifiable by an objective third party. It's not even verifiable by you.)
On the whole, I prefer Buddhist notions, but Christ said some fine things, too, and was apparently one hell of an itinerant preacher. In fact, I was discussing this very thing with a Baptist minister this weekend, after a funeral. (He thinks the Bible is mostly metaphorical, by the way.)
Then there's Luke Ch. 8 v. 16-17:
"No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light. For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad."
That "proves" that science is a gift from god, one that scientists must share, right?? Perhaps you shall now see the light.
Just to be evenhanded, I leave you with the rave of my fave Hindu, Ghandi: "Your Christ I love. It's your Christians I fear."
REBECCA: Sorry we hijacked your nice post for the sake of this classic impasse.
Rich Meitin
www.richmeitin.com
http://www.publicradioquest.com/node/1038
On the other hand, if you studied the major religions and settled upon Christianity based on concrete evidence, I'd like to know what that is.......
really?
because its a very very long write....
dont know if the forum can hold it.
and for your minister friend....the Bible is metaphorical in some verses, litteral in others, and hidden truths in all. its fairly easy to prove christianity over the other popular religions, AND to show you things that were known 4,000 years ago before science confirmed them thousands of years later. you can find evolution in Genises...its no big deal, way before Darwin knew anything about it....and for your 3rd party analogy....I dont need a 3rd party to verify any miraculous events in my life....they happened and continue to do so for millions every day.
science knows nothing about prayer...its out of its realm of understanding...because its not of the natural world.
It was recently proven to a statistical surety in a classic double blind experiment that hospitalized patients do somewhat WORSE when people are praying for them. Pretty interesting.
As for your crack about 3rd party proof, you've missed the point entirely. YOU can believe whatever you choose about prayer in your own life. But proof that your belief is a real FACT is another matter - thus the need for objective verification. It is this sort of verification at which science excels and religion utterly fails. On the other hand, religion is a whole lot better at proposing and explaining moral codes, etc. Different tools for different uses. Neither substitutes for the other. Neither negates the other.
If you're a REAL believer, feel free to cancel your health insurance, Bucko. All that stupid insurance buys you is a lot of crappy, unnatural medical science, right? Who needs science when god will provide?
Where does your rubber meet the road? No guts, no heavenly glory for you. Make that cancellation call and then we'll talk. Otherwise, you're just full of the hot air of hypocrisy, right?
As for your assertion that Christianity is easily proven to be the clear, obvious winner in a battle of the religious titans - shame on your bigotry. Typical faux-Christian smugness and superiority. Have you forgotten your true Christian humility?
Rich Meitin
www.richmeitin.com
http://www.publicradioquest.com/node/1038
your smoked out.....your double blind test means nothing..because God doesnt entertain the notion of proof the way man wants it....so the study was crap from the jump!
2- medicine and health care has nothing to do with religion...God blessed man with talents and gifts and most importantly a knowledge system built in the likes of HIMSELF! so going to the doctor does NOT make you a hypocrite! because the healing thats provided is made through God NOT your pill you recieve! and another thing...its God who heals what medical science always fails to, how many times have you heard of a case the doctors said you wont make it, you will die, and the next day they walk away fully healed?? thats an every day occurance and the doctors are left there dumbfounded, because they have no medical explanation(rolls eyes) your arguments are weak...that explains allot on why your not a lawyer anymore. and what the hell are you refering to in your last paragraph?? it is quite simple to explain why christianity is right...how is that bigotry? do you even know the definition of that word? what planet do you live on? the madder you get the more sloppy your replies become, and you become more like the angry child.
you dont have to believe...but guess what "bucko" you WILL die someday and then what will you do? tell the Lord he is a tyrant? that he was a hypocrite?nahh.. you will fall to your knees in fear and sorrow, because you heard- but didnt understand, you saw but didnt percieve.....and you attack me for what cause? your pride~ a deadly sin indeed.
so do us a favor and Quit talking until you can provide a reasonable argument other than what you can google from your dest top. plus your disturbing me, for I'm still waiting on the universe to appear in my rubbermaid container....hmm maybe I should add some heat/water and electricity to it?/ no wait, that would be intelligent design at work again, I forgot it must come something from nothing...........
According to you - MEDICINE is a "knowledge system built in the likes of [god]" but SCIENCE is NOT? WHY NOT??
Hasn't anyone ever told you that medicine IS science?
Do you take those pills the doctor give you? If so, why?
Finally - I haven't said one word against religion, Christ, etc. as you seem to think. I don't know where you get that from. All I've said is that science is good at one thing, religion is good at another, and it's preposterous to argue otherwise.
And yes - if you truly believe your race or religion is superior to the others, sorry, but you're a bigot. Let's try it in YOUR sentence from the post above, but substitute "white people" for "Christianity" -
"It is quite simple to explain why white people are right...how is that bigotry?"
See how that works? It's astounding to me that you think you can assert the "rightness" of Christianity in some objective way. It's a FAITH, not a FACT. Ask any Hindu.
Rich Meitin
www.richmeitin.com
http://www.publicradioquest.com/node/1038
Hey - ya never know.
Hmm - what if Jesus sent me here to convert YOU?
Rich Meitin
www.richmeitin.com
that the problem today is that smart people are burdened with the complexity of difficult decisions, but the foolish are always sure of themselves.
That pretty much explains Bush, Iraq, and all the people who think god is specifically on THEIR side.
Must be nice, in a way.
Rich Meitin
www.richmeitin.com
http://www.publicradioquest.com/node/1038
be a popular quote, I havent heard of it.
but you may be more familure with:
professing to be wise they became fools-
or perhaps: only a fool would say in thier heart there is no God....
and then you have to go and throw politics in it? I wished you lived in Iraq....bet you wouldnt complain to much about america being there then would you?
but there is enough civilians there that are glad we are so your lip flapping goes in one ear right out the other. this country and its affairs has no regaurds to Rich Meitins opinions,for they have no worth, you spread stife not wisdom.turn CNN off and go read a book.
Ain't easy, in this case, either.
Rich Meitin
www.richmeitin.com
I'm tempted to say that issues are for sissys... but I hesitate...
Except that hesitation is moot, since I already told you what I might post...
which is really an act of posting it...
Aw hell - what's the use in having cake if you can't eat it?
Just to clarify, science doesn't "know" anything at all. The beauty of it is that science is not a body of knowledge, or anything that changes every day. It is a process of examining the world in a critical fashion, a process we all use every day to find our keys, solve murders, and/or explore the way our universe changes and evolves. The list of "stuff we know" grows and changes every day, which is what makes life so much fun. There's always something new out there.
Also, evolution does not actually address the origins of the universe, so that's a question for another day. But I'll just add that your empty container does not exactly mimic the "nothingness" out of which something may have sprung. A fun/weird/scary mental exercise is to try to imagine "nothing" . . . it doesn't look black, or white, and there's no empty air inside of it, no molecules of oxygen and nitrogen and hydrogen, and there wouldn't even be any time during which you could even imagine it. It's just, well, nothing. It's the kind of thing that we don't even really have words to describe, and the only language that really comes close is mathematics. Crazy!
We might never know how everything got started (or if there even was a start), but I think it's pretty cool to try our best to figure out as much as possible while we can.
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